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Topic: more on board dimensions and weight

Today I tryed a 11 feet long, 30 (!) inches wide Jimmy Lewis epoxy stand up board. Superwide tail. Nice pads over two thirds of the board (what about nose riding?).
Very easy balance (compared to my 12.6x26 one), a good board for beginner standuppers, i'd say.

Somehow, it was more difficult to catch waves, though.
Here's a couple of reasons:
- when I paddled hard to catch the wave, the board tended to turn to the opposite side of the paddling instead of going straight in the line I put it. That's because of the combination of the lenght and width. To get this, imagine two extremes. A completely round board would only spin around when you paddle. A mile long narrow board will only go straight. Also, the fact that it was lighter made it turn easier because of the less grip of the board itself in the water.
- more against the lightness: a light board doesn't keep the momentum. I was paddling like crazy, accellerating while the paddle was in the water and decellerating while the paddle was out of the water. The speed was going up and down as I paddled. My heavier board takes longer to get started, but then it keeps going while I paddle.

Let's talk about the behavior on the wave.
The board felt "clumsy". The huge tail didn't help, but, sorry if I insist, the stiffness and the lightness of the epoxy board gave me the feeling that I was riding something TOO floaty and bouncy.

Later in the day, a perfect 8-10 knots wind picked up and I had one my best longboard sailling session ever. In particular, I remember a super steep left on which I reached a speed the I had never experienced going upwind on the longboard. Being pretty deep, I could make the whole upwind bowl, a section that is hard to make even on a shortboard. And you know why? Because of the weight that kept the board stick to the steep face of the upper third of that wave and made so that the board could continuosly get the push and the energy of it.
The epoxy board I tried this morning (assuming somebody put a mast track, of course), would have skipped over the surface too much and got out of control at the first chop. And I would probably be dead now...

Sorry this took so long. Sometime it's not easy to put in words things that your body feels. That's when poetry comes in handy...

Heavy polyester boards forever.

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2 Reply by WARDOG

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Hi Cammar,
Here's another perspective...
I haven't ridden the JL...so what you're saying may be representative of that particular board...but, I have ridden over 10 different standups in all shapes and sizes...

A board's ability to turn, is obviously not just limited to length /width ratio that you suggested...the rocker and bottom contours are also a large part of the equation...
Additionally, you've commented before about how amazed you were when you found out how much a fin can change the performance of a board...a fin can, and will, make a HUGE difference in a board's performance...the bigger the tail...and the more tail rocker it has...the more important the fin is...

Regarding board weight...
My 1st 2 standups were heavy polyesters ~ 30lbs...

[img] http://surfingsports.com/standup_paddle … oard10.jpg
[/img]

http://surfingsports.com/standup_paddle … index.html

After riding my custom and production epoxy standups at ~ 22lbs...I can say with 100% absolute certainty, that I would not go back...

Once you get a heavy board moving...it does glide nicely...
As you noted, momentum is related to mass times velocity...to get that momentum we must apply a force...in the equation F=M x A, it tells us that if the mass increases, so does the requisite force...

When you are spinning the board around to catch a wave and paddling to match the wave speed, a lighter board is simply going to be more maneuverable and require less effort to catch a wave , than a heavy board...providing the shape is identical...

Obviously a more rockered out board will spin about it's fulcrum easier...but, it's banana shape will also push water...this resistance will make it more difficult to catch waves...and paddle back once you do catch one...so will standing in the wrong place on the board...this usually takes some figuring out...some boards require that you are more active, less static in wave catching mode...

Regarding stiffness of ride...Sean Ordonez is very keyed in on this aspect of EPS...and his proprietary construction techniques impart PU board qualities into sandwich boards, giving them natural flex properties...not all EPS boards are the same...some epoxy surfboards I've ridden feel like you are riding a ping pong ball...

SO's rocker is very dialed in...parabolic rocker is sweet...not all shapers are getting this right on standups...can't just take a surfboard rocker and extrapolate it up...
I'd strongly recommend giving Sean's Big Red a go...and then get back to us...

We've had some awesome standup conditions here lately...
3 killer sessions in 24 hours...trunking it in 85* weather...it chilled down today with a frontal passage...so we had to do that blowboarding thang...

Warm winds, good waves, & strong strokes...{:~)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

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3 Reply by Dolf

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Wardog,

To cut to the chase, for my 83 kg self to buy this spring a longboard primarily for lightwind windsurfing in the waves and a few attempts at stand up paddling, are you saying the SOS Big Red is the best board?

Thanks for the advice.

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4 Reply by WARDOG

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Dolf wrote:

Wardog,

To cut to the chase, for my 83 kg self to buy this spring a longboard primarily for lightwind windsurfing in the waves and a few attempts at stand up paddling, are you saying the SOS Big Red is the best board?

Thanks for the advice.

Hi Dolf,
Cutting to the chase...there are quite a few people that have ended up at Big Red, or Big Blue, after spending their hard earned recreational dollars elsewhere on inferior product(s)...

Furthermore, I haven't talked to anyone that has picked up either of these boards from us, that has suggested a single improvement...as a standup paddleboard, or as a wavesailing longboard...

If the SOS standup/longboards didn't evolve any further than these recent offerings...I predict that these products will withstand the test of time...much like some of the ancient Hawaiian canoe shapes, and principles, that they have evolved from...

Warm winds, good waves, & strong strokes...{:~)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

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5 Reply by cammar

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Hi Wardog,

you have a lot more experience with different kind of standup boards, so I totally trust what you say...

I prolly (hehe, I love your slang thang ;-)) should have not even posted my thoughts, just because it was the first epoxy standup board I tried (and for a couple of waves only!)... but my body wanted to scream out those sensations and I wouldn't change a comma of what I wrote.
I actually tried a few epoxy 9.0 longboards and did not like any of them, pretty much for the same reason: too light, too floaty, too stiff (never tried a SO surfboard, unfortunately). Don't forget that in Maui, the water is warmer and it's windier, so there's almost always chops on the face of the waves... (I surfed in Cali and I couldn't believe how glassy those waves were over there!).

So, I don't have much to reply to your very interesting considerations, if not that I would love to have tried as many boards as you! Thank you for having shared your experience!
Oh, one more thing: if you still have your first poly standup boards and you want to sell them, it may be the time I buy something from you! :-)

Glad you're killing it with the standup, here in Maui it's all about windsurfing, 'cause it's the windiest winter since I live here (6 years)... ops, now I just stabbed Dolf on his back... :-)
Check my blog in a few days, yesterday at Hoo I took some killer shots of Levi and Co...

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6 Reply by paupau

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

but epoxy compositions can be differrent....
i mean 3 phase epoxy with carbon fiber is different from standard epoxy; i have a southpoint longboard 9.6 and it is different from entry level epoxy board.
and why a lot of factory choose this material?
abslotulely epoxy boards are less "spiritual" (no wood, no hand made etc) but i don't think them work worst.

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7 Reply by WARDOG

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

cammar wrote:

Hi Wardog,

you have a lot more experience with different kind of standup boards, so I totally trust what you say...SNIP...

Don't forget that in Maui, the water is warmer and it's windier, so there's almost always chops on the face of the waves... (I surfed in Cali and I couldn't believe how glassy those waves were over there!).

Dood,
Cali does get glassy...but, Mainland Mex can be mirror-like for weeks on end...

<image>

http://surfingsports.com/wardog_mexico_surf/index.html

Glad you're killing it with the standup, here in Maui it's all about windsurfing, 'cause it's the windiest winter since I live here (6 years)...

Kewl...windy here yesterday as well...5.0m2 conditions...been windy all Winter...but, it just got cold from an Arctic blast...sunny and very crisp...our banana trees didn't like it last night...weird weather...last week was record warm temps...now near record cold...just saw where Italy is having one of the warmest Winters in recorded history...

Oh, one more thing: if you still have your first poly standup boards and you want to sell them, it may be the time I buy something from you! :-)

Too late...they're sold...went to good homes...sculpted out of the last 2 PU Clark blanks in da Islands before Clark went out of biz...

<image>

http://www.surfingsports.com/standup_ge … _gear8.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/standup_paddle … oard16.jpg

Warm winds, good waves, & strong strokes...{:~)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

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8 Reply by WARDOG

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

paupau wrote:

abslotulely epoxy boards are less "spiritual" (no wood, no hand made etc) but i don't think them work worst.

Hola paupau...
The argument about epoxy boards having no soul is pau...;-)

99.999% of all boards are made of friggin plastic!!!
Matter of fact, several of the most recognized shapers in the world have said "there's no soul in plastic!"

Very few shapers are using all natural materials...there are a few using hemp and exotic woods...but. most any really good shaper is going to tell you that soul is all about the person riding the board...and the shaper who designed it...and what they eventually do, or don't do, with it...

Not many people carrying their wooden boards to the beach on horseback,
either...;-)

I will agree that there is definitely a nice aesthetic to wood veneers, like these curly koa boards that we helped Sean build when he visited last Fall...but, as Eva says..."they're still filled with that fluffy white stuff"...;-)

http://www.surfingsports.com/hope_ranch … plate2.jpg


[img]http://www.surfingsports.com/standup/so … ndups3.jpg
[/img]

[img]http://www.surfingsports.com/standup/so … ndups4.jpg
[/img]

[img]http://www.surfingsports.com/hope_ranch … o_red2.jpg
[/img]


http://www.surfingsports.com/hope_ranch … index.html


Warm winds, good waves, & strong strokes...{:~)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

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9 Reply by Dolf

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Hi Wardog,

Thanks, that was clear. Based on your advise, from your experience, the Big Red is moving to the top of my options list. That is much appreciated as there is not a lot of experience and data on all this out there yet.

One more question. Sean seemed a bit ambivalent on putting a mast track on the Big Red; to do with strength and warranty. Do you have any comments on that.

Thanks again,

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10 Reply by WARDOG

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Dolf wrote:

Hi Wardog,

Thanks, that was clear. Based on your advise, from your experience, the Big Red is moving to the top of my options list. That is much appreciated as there is not a lot of experience and data on all this out there yet.

One more question. Sean seemed a bit ambivalent on putting a mast track on the Big Red; to do with strength and warranty. Do you have any comments on that.

Thanks again,

Hi Dolf,
No worries...I know that it will exceed your expectations...

Sean's ambivalence about longboard wavesailing his standups? hmmmmmmm...prolly has something to do with what he knows we (or he) will do them...;-)

[img] http://surfingsports.com/cali_longboard … ling20.jpg
[/img]

http://surfingsports.com/cali_longboard … index.html

A sail rig attached to a big board in big waves...potential for lots of hydraulic stresses with a huge lever arm......

I've had mast tracks factory installed in all of the SOS standups that I've imported to the states...
No problemos yet...and I think we've stress tested them pretty good...they are very well built...I've been ripped across rock piles while standing on them and only suffered surface scratches...definitely seems as strong or stronger than any of my sailboards...I wouldn't recommend jumping them...instantaneous point loading of the mast track...but, if you concentrate on riding waves...you should be good to go...

[img]http://surfingsports.com/cali_longboard … ling25.jpg
[/img]

http://surfingsports.com/cali_longboard … ling33.jpg

Warm winds, good waves, & strong strokes...{:~)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

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11 Reply by Dolf

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Hi Wardog,

Those are great pictures, You have obviously thoroughly tested the product and aleviated my concern.

Thanks,

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12 Reply by Jeffrey Henderson

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Regarding the original post, there is one blazingly obvious factor that has not been noted. You were on a HUGE board! That board is probably 40% larger than your normal board, and simply it is not a good board for you. Add another 60 to 100 lbs and maybe you will like it more.

Big Red is not going to be the right board for a 120lb lady either. Board size to body weight is extremely relevant and seems to get no discussion.....

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13 Reply by WARDOG

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Jeffrey Henderson wrote:

Big Red is not going to be the right board for a 120lb lady either. Board size to body weight is extremely relevant and seems to get no discussion.....

Hi Jeff,
Totally true...sooner or later we'll even have volume specs on standups...but, then again maybe not...hasn't happened in the surfing world where length and width are still measured in FEET & INCHES...;-)

I talk standup all day long to people all over the world...
Their body weight is the first question that I ask when it comes down to them ordering a board...other parameters at play as well...waves vs. downwind paddling runs...surfing ability...type of surf breaks they frequent...water conditions...fresh vs. salt...wind...etc...

Right now it's all about supply...I'd say most standup paddlers are currently on boards that aren't optimal simply because of lack of availability...they are paddling whatever they can get their hands on...just like the guy I met an hour ago...this is changing...

The bottom is going to drop out of the used market on soft tops and the Surftech Munoz boards very soon...as more bona fide standups become available...

Warm winds, good waves, & strong strokes...{:~)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

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14 Reply by Dolf

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Please don't tell my wife that the Big Red is not ideal for her.

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15 Reply by cammar

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Unless, as Jeff suggests, she puts on 60 to 100 lbs.
But I guess you'd rather buy her a smaller board... ;-)

PS. I just posted some fine photos of Hoo on my blog.

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16 Reply by Dolf

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Jeff,

To redundantly answer what is probably your rhetorical comment. Weight does not get any discussion because it is not even considered by the board manufacturers of short boards. Boards are advertised as suitable for conditions and sail sizes. They are sold with one fin. As if Giampaolo and I are going to sail on the same size board or even more silly the same size fin! Sean seems to be the only lightweight who is recognizing that some of us are heavier. My emperical formulas may not be perfect, but a guideline for gear selection relevant to weight is a lot better than the present vacuum of information.

Giampaolo,
I have found that fin size is as important as board size. Joanna has a quiver of little fins with which she uses our biggest gear in the lightest wind conditions and it works well. Perhaps this may not extrapolate perfectly to long boards, but I am hoping that a small fin on a big longboard for a lightweight will work better than a small longboard with a big fin for a heavy guy.

Even I got confused rereading this.

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17 Reply by WARDOG

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Dolf wrote:

Please don't tell my wife that the Big Red is not ideal for her.

Hi Dolf,
The SOS Big Blue is my wifey's standup of choice...

<image>

http://www.surfingsports.com/sos_sup_bo … oards6.jpg

Mikey likes it , too!!! (he's 165lbs)...

http://www.surfingsports.com/standuppin … _sb100.jpg

http://www.surfingsports.com/standuppin … g_sb98.jpg

Warm winds, good waves, & strong strokes...{:~)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

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18 Reply by Dolf

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Wardog,

Our Maui locker and rental van are FULL. Adding one longboard is a problem. Adding 2 would require a major new more expensive storage and transport strategy. I have no doubt that the red and blue would be respectively ideal, but I beg for your discretion.

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19 Reply by WARDOG

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Dolf wrote:

Wardog,

Our Maui locker and rental van are FULL. Adding one longboard is a problem. Adding 2 would require a major new more expensive storage and transport strategy. I have no doubt that the red and blue would be respectively ideal, but I beg for your discretion.

Hi Dolf,
We all have our problemos...;-)

Cruizin' along with your SO (significant other) on your SO SUP...;-), down the coast, is one of the really enjoyable aspects of standupping...

This helmetcam vid clip kinda captures the essence of a downwind run with the wifey...29mb download...5:46 min.

http://surfingsports.com/vidstream/stan … arbara.wmv

<image>

<image>

One of our vans is a dedicated to standup boards...we call it the paddlewagon...

http://www.surfingsports.com/hope_ranch … wagon1.jpg

Big Red & Big Blue kinda go together like his & hers...;-)

<image>

http://www.surfingsports.com/sos_sup_bo … wagon2.jpg

Where there's a will, there's a way?...;-)

ps...sorry, if you want to stay happily married...I just don't see any other way to solve the problem...maybe sell the mountain bikes?

Warm winds, good waves, & strong strokes...{:~)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

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20 Reply by cammar

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Dolf, no excuses!

I have a little escort SW and I have ALWAYS with me:
4 sails
3 windsurf boards
3 masts
one boom
AND
my 12.6 longboard... without even mentioning the subwoofer!

Occasionally I add surfboards on top as needed.

I don't remember if you guys use the roof rack already. Even if you do, whatever you put on it already can go on top of two big standup board that will even act as a shade for the van itself so that you can take cooler siesta naps...

Just have Jeff/Tom build you a custom bag (that you can put on and take off even with the boards still on the racks), so that they won't take too much direct sun.

Your van is too high? Get a ladder!

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21 Reply by Jeffrey Henderson

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Your single dude. Big difference.

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22 Reply by david

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

pic of my toy. it's a 11" walden magic model. For sure it will bring me now even more magic moments!!

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23 Reply by david

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

here is the pic
<image>

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24 Reply by cammar

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

Geez David, I hope you took better photos than that in your life!! Can't even see the tail!

Anyway, from what I can see it looks good, let us know how it rides. Finally a surfboard manufacturer that understood that having a mast box is a plus...

Or did somebody plugged it in for you?

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25 Reply by david

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Re: more on board dimensions and weight

sorry for the bad pic Cammar, must be the french wine....:-)
I mounted the box myself. It's a board with loads of volume and very easy to surf in smal wave conditions. So thought it could also bring loads of fun with a sail. It's a epoxy sanwich construction but it still got a lot of flex.
I made also i cant of a tail photo....ehhh... actually i missed the tail.......hahhahhahah, that french wine again....
<image>

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