it's time you made a 7.5 :-).....to run on a 460 of course

I have sailed with a lot of women who are beginner / intermediates who really don't like uphauling anything 6.x. Especially so for middle-aged, non-athletic types. This is why I suggested 5.5 as the smallest size.

when can i order it

if you could make it similar to the 7.0 but longer in the boom for more longboard light wind drive, that would be an excellent sail. i've said before that something like 6.3 / 7.5 / 9.0 is a no brainer for people who sail in that range, especially on any kind of longboard.

the problem i've always had with the bigger sized freaks is that the 7.0 is a classic, and a must have i think. but the gap to 9.0 is too big so the 8.0 is kinda essential. then the 6.3 is almost too close to the 7.0, while the 5.8 is good, but then you have a bigger gap in the smaller sizes than you have in the larger sizes....you can see i have given this some thought :-).

so, you're almost obliged to have a 6.3,7.0,8.0,9.0, which on a longboard is overkill, because longboards extend the range of any sail so much. iv'e sailed pretty well nothing but longboards for the last 4 years, and trial and error, [ lots of error ] has shown without a doubt that the best 3 sail quiver is 6.3[ish],7.5,9.0

you need to make a 7.5 :-)

Last edited by rod_r (2010-10-16 16:19:40)

Well, its cold here in NYC and this thread is still going - now it's a sail for next summer, but happily it may appear?  I lied when I said I had my final sail of the season - there was one more, about 10 days ago.  I wanted to try my new Severne Super Light.  7 knots when I started out: sail shape seemed a mess, too deep (on the booms) when rigged to spec.  Re-rigged a number of times on the water (changing extension on both mast and booms), never got it right.  The bottom of the sail had too deep a draft.  On a diagonal line from the clew to the point where the head batten met the mast sleeve, the sail had a large fold, but no draft (Maple Leaf develops a similar but MUCH smaller fold when on a plane).  Above this fold the sail had a good looking shape.  No combination of downhaul or outhaul would solve this problem.  As I sailed, the wind came up, and up, and I clearly should have been planing, but whenever the board started to move, the whole rig would shudder, and the board would settled back down into the water.  I went in.  It was now blowing pretty hard, and I was beginning to think I had imagined the fun I had planing with the Maple Leaf, so I rigged it quickly (it rigs very quickly), and headed back out.  Unbelievable.  The 40-year-old sail design was fantastic.  I planed right off, and even though I was way overpowered in 25mph (and there was that back-hand pressure I remember from many years ago), it was a pleasure to sail.

So, for those who think a good soft sail won't plane (or won't be fun on a plane), you are mistaken (I was one of you).  For JH, I am not a fan of talking down anybody's effort, but yes, the Severne/Starboard effort with the Super Light is a joke.  It is the only sail I have ever sailed that I don't want to sail again (well, maybe a couple of others come to mind, but they weren't this bad).  After my experience, I believe it when you say that doing this right (and more than WOD sail) will be complicated.  That's why it has to be you, no?

Finally, sizes - I have no opinion (since I don't know yet what sail will be like) other than to say that I think a small soft sail would also be good.  I am teaching my 10-year-old daughter - I would rather teach her on a soft sail (which has more "feel" and turns more quickly) than the full-battened kids sail (not HSM, maybe that's the problem?) I have.  Not essential - just a thought.

Looking forward to the new sail.  What will it be called?

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Last edited by nyocean (2010-10-16 20:49:36)

NYOcean- Thanks for the report and confirmation. Size thoughts noted.

Rod_r, Start a new thread, your talking about a totally different animal. (Valid, but not in this thread)

Noted....

Don't worry about that! 460 more like it.

I started this thread *years* ago!  (I changed my username since then)

http://www.hotsailsmaui.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=277

My choice would be a 5.5 (or so) for beginners/big kids/ladies (all of which I teach) and also something in the 6.7 range.

I play with the SF Coloring program all the time but I always come back to my favorite, red and white.  Totally classic  )

Drew (happy because the last of the ice on the lake melted last night!!!)

So dumpstatic and I agree - 5.x is a critically important size for the health / rebirth of windsurfing.

As his old thread suggested, there are old boards lurking out there. The local club seems to find them all the time - people keep showing up with some early 80's board (and a few from the early 90's). The year I lived in Montreal there was a guy with an original windsurfer (and sail) who only showed up when it was really howling and the only thing he ever did was old school freestyle. There's a guy here in Ithaca who's not much different, other than being substantially less skilled. Brings his Windsurfer, rigs a blown-out sail, goes out and back, never planes, isn't interested in new gear, drives a Volvo with all his stuff tied on top of the car during the season. Oh, and he doesn't have a harness. He looks at the new gear, might chat for a bit, rigs, sails 45-60 minutes and goes home.

I think to get to these kinds of folks, one would have to have an inexpensive one-batten sail, an inexpensive low-tension 30 carbon mast, a stubby alloy base to fit the mast and some adapters to fit the old mast tracks (more than anything else  -THOSE ADAPTERS-  would sell like hotcakes). They don't want a new board, but would probably get a new rig if it were $250.

These are not Maui-style modern windsurfers. They're inland lake cruising windsurfers who's other choice would have been a Sunfish (which hasn't changed in about 100 years, save for materials in construction). From what I've seen, both here and in other parts of NY / PA where I've lived, there are lots of these folks. They're the 80's windsurfing boom sailors that gave it up, but who still have the board because....well, have you ever tried to sell an old windsurfing board? They won't spend a lot of money because they've "been there, done that, I'm older now...", but for half-a-dozen times a year they might spend $200 or so.

Don't believe me? Start up a club, give it a little PR, and they'll show up to see if you'll buy their old board...the challenge is to get them back into the game some 25 years later.

One board, one sail, cheap enough to just leave on top of the car, ready to go when you've got an hour or two and the freedom to just rig and get out on the water for some time communing with your God. That WAS the windsurfing boom (I missed it, but the allure of that was why I started). If anything, I believe the yearning for that retreat from the chaos of modern life is stronger than ever. The demand is still there, but mainstream windsurfing has left these folks behind. The answer to that just needs to be simple, cheap, easy to use, and not very technical.

This is a big part of why the RSX was such a screw-up, and dropping the IMCO was a catastrophe.

RE: loop at the peak of the sail
Because I splurged on masts of the right size, I use the loop at the peak of my Freaks to both hold down the gear and as an aid to de-rigging. I cut the plastic tube piece off and use the loop as a tie-on spot. For streamers and such, I tend to insert a brass grommet in the top panel.

RE: masts
I agree, these folks look at their old masts and see a perfectly good mast. Bend curves, yada yada, they don't and won't get it. What they've got is an epoxy 450 or 460 mast and as long as they didn't let it sit out in the weather....it's indeed a perfectly good mast. What they want is a sail that worked like their old sail.

RE: modern equivalent boards
Some of these folks might upgrade their board if it's easy to use. The one's I've met have often gained weight, gotten some arthritis, multiple reasons for being less gung-ho. And I suspect there are younger people who would have that same happy-go-lucky view of windsurfing - they're going to go half a dozen times a year, all they want to do is go back and forth in the longboard cruising mode. Also, there are the family types - people who's parents took them windsurfing as kids, but drifted away and now they've got kids and want to go to the lake on nice summer days or take a board on a summer vacation. Another time when I see lots of old boards is July / August when they're loaded on top of the family car and headed for some secluded lake spot (which is why I never see these folks sailing).

IMO the best board for these kinds of users right now is the Kona One, but it needs an old 80's style rig.

I figured the technological bit is pretty easy at this point.

Worrying about HSM, I just don't know how to reach these people reliably. They come out of the woodwork on really windy days, I'd say a half-dozen of them a year here at Cayuga Lake (3 to sail, 3 hoping to sell). The former I think you could sell a new sail and maybe rig/boom; the latter I'm not sure about.

I have no idea how to reach the folks who have an ancient plank on top of the car and are on their way to the secluded mountain lake.

So my advice on this would be to have a sail that works OK on an old 460/450 epoxy mast (aim for IMCS of 25), have primarily a made-to-order or very low inventory 6.5, with 5.5 and 7.5 made-to-order. White dacron with a big old HSM flame would probably make their day. That or Hobie-Cat style rainbow colors. Something very traditional.

Then you'd just have to get Niclas to feed Google enough input so that HSM pops up at the top of the search when they're looking for a sail!